These messages are the accumulation of the messages that were sent out on the Blue Room email list between May 1995 and June 2000. A large portion of the information is directly from Professor M.A.R Barker. When the list members joined during the time the list was active, they agreed to refrain from sharing this data with non list members. When the list ended, it was urged that the data be made available to non-list Tekumel fans, and it seemed like a good idea all around. I only ask that if you download these digests, or have received them in some other way, please respect the agreements the list members made, and refrain from passing them around and instead point people to the Tekumel web site, www.tekumel.com so that they can download them for themselves, and see all the other material available on the Tekumel.com web site. Many Thanks. Chris Davis Moderator: Blue Room mailing list Creative Commons - Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivs CC BY-NC-ND BLUE ROOM ARCHIVE -- VOLUME 20 [4 November 1997 - 3 December 1997] 571: New Section on Web Site 572: Technology 573: Tekumel/Vulcan 574: Mitlanyal Update 575: Mayan Long Count 576: More Weapon Design 577: More on Ditlana 578: Mihalli Theory 579: More on Semaphores 580: More on the Cataclysm 581: Origins of Sakbe and Ditlana? 582: More on Semaphores 583: More on Semaphores 584: Other Pocket Dimensions 585: More on Technology 586: More on Shrines and Temples 587: Legion Administration 588: More on Technology 589: More on Tekumel/Vulcan 590: More on 3-Light Drive 591: More on Tekumel/Nu Ophiuchi 592: More on Weapon Design 593: More on Semaphores 594: More on Semaphores 595: More on Semaphores 596: More on Origins of Sakbe and Ditlana 597: More on Semaphores 598: More on Semaphores 599: More on Semaphores 600: More on Semaphores ******************************* //571 [Moderator's Note: Peter Gifford writes to tell that he has added another ] [ section to his Tekumel Web Site. Thanks Peter! ] Ohe ! At last ! I'm happy to announce that a new section of the 'Tekumel: The World of the Petal Throne' site has been completed. It's a description of the ten major 'Gods' and their Cohorts, along with new renditions of their emblems. Choose a link below to take you to the site. I'm taking a break (a seven week trip to India), so they'll be no new updates until mid January. Hopefully the trip will also inspire some new visuals for the site, and I'll probably be using some photographic source material from the trip also! As usual, all comments, contributions, constructive criticism and/or effusive praise are greatly welcomed. There's an email link at the bottom of every page. Best regards, and a happy and safe Xmas and New Year, Peter Gifford ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ The site is designed for optimum viewing with NetScape Communicator 4.03, with fonts and font sizes set to defaults. JavaScript rollovers are in common use. The site is graphic-heavy but I'm always working to reduce the bandwidth demands. 'Tekumel: The World of the Petal Throne' Site: http://www.magna.com.au/~unihead/tekumel Bypass the Intro Page (& page reformatting): http://www.magna.com.au/~unihead/tekumel/tekumel.html Take me straight to the Chronology to see the latest updates: http://www.magna.com.au/~unihead/tekumel/chronology.html Take me straight to the new section: http://www.magna.com.au/~unihead/tekumel/world_godsindex.html Email: ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Peter Gifford ----- Chris Davis Moderator, The Blue Room blueroom@prin.edu The Blue Room's FTP site: http://nexus.prin.edu or ftp://nexus.prin.edu Available 24 hours a day, except when my PC is down, or unavailable. //572 [Moderator's Note: James Eckman, Patrick Brady, and Sean Boomer all make good] [ points about differing aspects of the issue dealing with ] [ introducing new technologies onto a society like that of ] [ Tekumel's. ] [James Eckman writes...] There have been many cultures that have decided for the majority of their members that it's better to be a dead traditionalist than a live innovator. Some of the Amerindian tribes made those types of decisions. The survivors of these tribes would be considered misfits and outcasts to the older tribal customs. Hitler and his bad boys kept fighting a clearly lost war even though it would devastate their own country. People and cultures are not rational, faced with a large influx of innovation minded, western techie outlook type people, Tsolyanu might have a real problem. But they don't, because this outlook doesn't exist in any vast scale on Tekumel. Basically accept the Professor's premises is what I would suggest. --- [Patrick Brady writes...] A thought about gunpowder and magic. Magic isn't sufficiently rare on Tekumel to be very threatened by even fairly advanced gunpowder. Frankly, Tsolyani sorcery would probably be more effective against a 16th century musketeer line or even 18th century artillery than it is against the present enemies of the Empire. Hostile sorcery would make handling black powder a form of suicide. Given the interest the Temple of Vimuhla has in pyrotechnics and the availability of relatively low level telekinetic spells, it would be a brave man or a fool who wandered the battlefield festooned with quantities of black powder. With spells that create water, wind and fire anything from before the sealed cartridge would be much less useful than it may first appear. Standing next to a muzzle loading cannon, and the piles of gunpowder barrels they required to service them, would not be a significant contribution to your personal glory or lifespan. Given the relatively widespread use of spells of warding, it would not be possible to shatter infantry lines at range with gunfire in set piece battles. At least with arrows something big and sharp will fall (slowly) through the warding. It seems to me that you need the sorcerers at least as much as a defense as an offence, without them it would take a great technological improvement to avoid suffering huge losses. And if you must have them for defence... Hauling carts: Even if you could do it on the Sakbe, you would have no chance on even moderately rough ground. A horse produces a lot more power and traction than a human. Anything capable of similar would no longer be describable as a human. Actually the situation on Tekumel always strikes me as horrifyingly plausible. Once you understand its precepts, the axioms just roll into place :-) The Professor has written new rules, that is really what makes it so much fun. Regards, Patrick --- [Sean Boomer writes...] Hi there! I'm a little new to this game system, but a couple of things strike me about Gordon's comments about gunpowder and spells. First of all, regarding gunpowder. It does not follow that just because a high ranking scholar makes an exploding powder someone will think up a musket-like device to accompany it. The Chinese DID put gunpowder to military use, but primarily to confuse and disrupt enemy lines (firecrackers). In hindight I don't see any reason for them to have thought of anything else. I know that nothing like the musket would have occurred to me if I had never heard of the concept. It was probably serendipity that led to the invention of cannon, and from this the musket. Secondly - wouldn't powerful magical interests move in to block any mass use of spells (or gunpowder) by the common field soldier? After all, a lot of powerful wizards would lose out on a great source of wealth and prestige (serving as magical battlefield support). I think it would be a very brave general who would risk the wrath of powerful sorcerers. Cheers, Sean //573 [Moderator's Note: Professor Barker responds to the possible use of Tsolyani ] [ characters to represent Vulcan Language in Star Trek 3. ] [Please Note: Some time in the next week or 2, nexus will go down, in flames,] [ but just like a Phoenix, a new nexus will rise up. So, there ] [ will be a period of time where nexus won't respond, but it will] [ come a day or 2 later. (It shouldn't be much more than that. ] [ I am getting a new computer in the office. ] Yes, I have seen the moview you mention -- and did not notice the inscription on the gong-beaer's headdress. That is not unusual for me -- I am as blind as a Hu-bat or worse. Tekumel has been utilised in various ways by various people. Tekumel-like armour, swords, and costumes are common on miniature lead "wargaming" figures. I have a dozen from various manufacturers myself, though I don't recall seeing any lately that might still be available. A few people have borrowed the Tekumel mythos for their own fiction, with never a kind word for its creator. Really, this is of little importance to me -- a money-grubber I am not. Indeed, if I had to live on the proceeds from Tekumel, I would very soon be as starved as any fleshless Shedra! >[Moderator's Note: Gordon Neff may have found a Tekumel sighting. I'll have] >[ to go back and check the movie, but it would be interest-] >[ ing to have Phil comment on this. Have you seen the ] >[ movie in question, Phil? If not, let's try to find a ] >[ copy for you to view. ] > > Chris: > > Well, well. Lookee what we have here... > 1984's "Star Trek III: The Search For Spock" concludes on the >planet Vulcan, with a massive ceremonial ritual conjuring up heavy magic. >Lightning flashes, the thing takes all night, &c., &c. > > Now, this whole sequence is HUGELY REDOLENT of Tekumel-- put a few >million bucks into an EPT movie, and you could produce something >essentially identical. The High Priestess in headdress and robes, with >lesser priests and priestesses flocking around; guards in fantastically >ornate armor with pike-like weapons no less ornate, a huge gong struck >ritually... > Fine. Interesting coincidence. Very impressive sequence, too. > Then I just HAPPENED to get a close look at the chap striking the >gong. The one with the vaguely Japanese-looking headdress. The one with >Tsolyani characters inscribed on his headdress. > > They're all word-initial consonants; it's not an actual phrase of >any sort. It is, however, UNMISTAKABLE. Anybody write them down? I'm just curious. Maybe the designer tried to make a joke in English using Tsolyani characters? I've had several people write to me in English using Tsolyani script -- and even one or two who struggled personfully to write real Tsolyani. I'll never forget how I got my first lead miniature Urunen: I saw an ad in a British wargaming magazin for a species called something like "Sons of Satan" (?). The picture with the ad was so familiar tht I went to my picture file and hunted through it. Sure enough, there it was, dating from the 1940's or earlu 1950's, marked "Urunen," My notes said these creatures are South Pole dwellers. I wrote away at once to the figure manufacturer -- and soon received a reply in *Tsolyani*! You can imagine the stunned shock...! It turned out that the figure-designer had a longstanding love for Tekumel. Do influences *really* creep through the "Skin of Reality" from the Planes Beyond? I am too cynical to say yes, but ... Who knows? Bey Su and Avanthar may really be "just around the corner." Regards, Phil ----- //574 [Moderator's Note: Bob Alberti provides a Mitlanyal update. ] Following a week's delay caused by quality concerns, Mitlanyal pre-publication reading copies are ready to ship. Copies will be numbered and sent out in the order that the payments were received. No checks have been processed, nor will they until the book is in the mail. A small delay may result if you requested Professor Barker's signature. If you wish to order a pre-publication reading copy of Mitlanyal, send $20 US per copy to Bob Alberti 2732 40th Ave. S. Mpls, MN 55406 Unless otherwise specified, the order will be mailed to the address on the check. No checks will be processed until the order is in the mail. Specify quantity and whether you are interested in numbering or autographs in the memo field of your check. Only my autograph, and not that of the Professor, can be guaranteed. I am also looking into the details of overseas orders. Overseas orders, please bear with me on this one -- international trade is not my forte! -- Bob Alberti http://freenet.msp.mn.us/~alberti alberti@freenet.msp.mn.us ERROR: file 'witty.signature' not found. ----- //575 [Moderator's Note: Chris Carey writes the following about the Long Count. ] On Sunday, 2nd November 1997, The Professor wrote: >Yes, the Maya Long Count comes to the end of its major cycle in 2012... >The records speak of the "Cataclysm of the First Annihilation," which I >assumed meant the great destruction of 2012-13. The first day of the new Mayan baktun (namely 13.0.0.0.0, 4 Ahau 3 Kankin) will be Saturday, 22nd December 2012 A.D./8th Safar 1434 A.H. Perhaps the records about which the Professor wrote referred to Hijri dates, and thus he'd "translated" the year from 1434 A.H. to 2012/2013 A.D. for the benefit of people who aren't familiar with the Islamic calendar? Chris Carey PS. Alexandre Nothis writes the following, looking for a Tekumel Game. If any of you want to contact him I include his email address below. To whom it may concern, I am looking for a grout of Tekumel players in Los Angeles, which could introduce me to the RPG. Do you have knowledge of such a group ? Thanking you in advance, Alexandre Nothis. 73214.111@compuserve.com ----- //576 [Moderator's Note: The Professor expounds upon the Weapon Design topic, and ] [ Dwight Grosso adds information on Pole Arms to the dis- ] [ cussion. ] [Moderator's Note: John Smith asks about the Tsolyani flared weapon design.] >quoth the Professor on chlen hide: >>Obtaining bronze swords for the entire Tsolyani army would be a major drain >>on the Empire's fiscal reserves. Chlen-hide is so much easier to get; the >>troops like it because it is very light (which bronze is not) >Very true. I have a solid bronze dagger and a steel kukhri which are of >about equal weight, even though the kukhri is almost twice the size of >the dagger! No wonder they kept swords short in the Bronze Age. You are quite correct in your assessment of the weight of weapons. I have samples of all sorts of ancient, mediaeval, and oriental weapons right here in my house, and some of them are just plain *strange.* The heaviest swords I have are two-handed flamberges (the Swiss Landsknecht sword). These weight 11 and 12 pounds, respectively, and because of their balance, I defy even Arnie Schwarzenneger to wield wield them agilely. They were used, I have read, in mixed phalanxes of Spanish short-swordsmen, 2-handed swordsmen, and pikemen in the rear with pike points over the shoulders of their comrades ahead of them. This "hedgehog" made the Swiss almost unbeatable in late-mediaevaL Europe. I also have much lighter Indian weapons that defy anybody to use them: highly curved, blade-heavy scimitars, a left-handed dagger with 2 blades and a handle nobody in the West can get a fighting grip on, etc. etc. >>the >>Tsolyani were never interested in *short* or simple *straight* swords; >>their society demands elaborate shapes and complexities. >This has always bothered me. Many of the swords and other weapons I >have seen in illustrations of Tekumel have been SO elaborate as to look >impossible to wield in real combat. Even if chlen hide is much lighter, >the weapon should still be properly balanced to be effective. Another >matter is that all those waves, barbs, and zags will get caught in your >opponent's armour or in his body, meaning you will waste time you may >not have trying to free it. You can have this difficulty even with the >most streamlined sword, how much more so with those baroque creations >the Tsolyani carry around? Even if you killed the guy, will your next >opponent be so "noble" as to wait for you to work your sword free? The >courtesies of the Hirilakte Areas do not necessarily apply to warfare, >no matter how formallised. An equal possibility is that your sword will >break, maybe just at the tip which will make it less effective, or maybe >further down which may make it useless to you. I will admit that >leaving a barb in somebody will make a wound nastier but is it worth the >other possibility? In either situation you could easily kill your first >opponent only to find yourself disarmed in the middle of a battle. Even >if you carry more than one weapon this may only delay the inevitable. >Unless they let you go back to your camp to get a new weapon, you now >have to scavenge from your fallen comrades or from the enemy and even if >you can find an intact weapon in time (remember that they will be having >the same problem) it may not be one you are trained to use. I recall in >various sources (Swords and Glory, etc.) it is emphasized that one >usually receives training only in the weapons of one's Legion, so if >your Legion uses swords and all you can find are polearms, you're almost >as badly off as any untrained peasant would be in the same situation. > >This also would be an economic and logistical nightmare. Imagine an >army having to haul enough weapons to re-arm itself four or five times >over! Can the five empires really afford THAT much planned >obsolescence? Is chlen hide really that cheap? (Don't forget the labour >costs involved either!) Chris has the correct answer, below. The very elaborate swords, halberds, etc. are largely ceremonial. The Tsolyani do not seem to have favoured a straight sword -- even their combat swords are curved and may have a sharp back-point or two. One of the arts taught by the sword-masters in the academies is the use of these barbs and extra points to catch an opponent;s armour or shield and pull him/her off balance so that one's comrades in the battle line can put quietus to him. This fighting style works best with massed phalanxes, but even individually, a Tsolyani swordsman may attempt to catch his opponent with his blade and drag him offguard. Some prefer to add a sharp little "main gauche" (left-hand dagger) as well to make sure the fellow doesn't somehow get in a blow. >Now, I am probably overstating the case here somewhat. I would assume >that the weapons meant for regular soldiers in set battles are of less >elaborate shapes than those meant for display or for duels. Also it may >be that chlen hide weapons are not so subject to breakage as metal ones, >though I see this as only partly alleviating the problem. Chlen-hide weapons are a little more flexible, as well as easier to shape and decorate. >[Moderator's Note: I believe you are correct here. While the Tekumelani do ] >[ indeed prefer some style-ization of their weapons, those ] >[ that are excessively decorated/designed are for rituals ] >[ only. A less flambouyant style is used for fighting. ] >[ The Professor can elaborate, confirm or deny this. ] > >I also noted in the "Adventures on Tekumel" series that you never refer >to weapon _sheathes_, but only to weapon "clips," which strikes me as >sensible. Absolutely. One cannot drag a hooked and barbed Tsolyani sword out of a scabbard in any reasonable time. The little belt clip works much better. Regards, Phil ---------- [Dwight's Comments....] In John Smith's letter, the subject of the stylized polearms being unweildly came up. If memory serves me European and asian Polearms were frequently very elaborate with multiple barbs, hooks, and blades. Now this may seem to make a weapon unweildly, but it isn't true. These weapons were designed to disarm, snag up or break other weapons. I'm sure any soldier on Tekumel would tell you the same thing! Furthermore, there were whole schools, both in Asia and Europe dedicated to learning the art of the polearm. Consider for a moment: Feinting with a polearm and following it up with a viscious kick to your opponent's knee or groin. Perhaps a bit crude, but there are illustrations from European weapons manuals illustrating the selfsame manouver. Polearms are far from clumsy weapons. A friend of mine in the SCA was demonstrating how a halberd could be used one handed in case of the loss of one of your arms in battle. My friend also pointed out that Polearm users in the Society are not allowed to swing their weapons overhead at more than a 90 degree arc... as it has a nasty tendency to break bones even when padded! There was also an article in one of the old Imperial Couriers about how and why the weapons of Tekumel are used. The concept of drawcuts and snagging and binding weapons was mentioned in I believe. Bear in mind also that the Swiss beat the dogsnot out of the Germans at the battle of Sempach with halberds, and that the Landschnekts were masters of polearms as well.... In short Polearms don't nearly get the credit that they deserve in most cases, when in fact they form the backbone of all armies, Ancient Terran or Tekumelyani. Sincerely, Dwight Grosso ----- //577 [Moderator's Note: Peter Timko responds a bit more on the subject of Ditlana.] [ Or has this argument transeded that topic? :) ] [ Please Note: Problems with my new computer should be resolved by Monday ] [ or Tuesday... Nexus will not be available until my new ] [ computer gets in and is working. Sorry for the delay. ] Companions of the Blue Room: Many thanks to Imel HiKetkolel for his response to my message concerning ditlana. It was this type of response precisely I sought by remarking of "dialectics." I conferred with the Tsolyani acquaintance who had suggested view of ditlana to me, and he gave one of his chilling laughs before offering the following response, which I hope I have done justice with my translation. (He's an unusual man, an almost mystical follower of Chiteng, reputed to be quite adept at both killing and healing,...) Bakheel HiSheschel of the Black Hood Clan, alchemist and follower of Chiteng, resident of Fasiltum, replies to Imel HiKetkolel of the Clan of the Purple Gem, a priest in the temple of Karakan and rusala to the 5th Imperial Heavy Infantry, and his discussion of ditlana. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ While I am able, with great difficulty, to pronounce the name of "Orson Welles", I am quite unable to agree with his thesis that times of instability promote great artists and men of letters. The period of greatest artistic and literary achievement in my civilisation occurred during an era known as Engsvlan Hla Ganga, a golden age in which Stability held sway over a vast area for a considerable time. Cultures noted for a love of bloodshed, such as the Nluss, or for political division, such as the Milumanayani or the natives of Haida Pakala, have produced little of merit. While we may argue about particulars of the history of Engsvan Hla Ganga, noble Imel HiKetkolel and I would surely agree that we know comparatively little -- and our temples would disagree about almost all of that. From a great distance, a fire appears to be a single light which, although it may flicker somewhat, does not change size or shape overmuch, so that one may indeed call it stable. Yet for one who sees the fire (or is consumed by it), the picture is very different. Which view is the more accurate? From this distance of time _you_ claim that Stabilith held sway during the greatness of the Priestkings' era. I demur from that view. As someone who knows both Haida Pakala and Tsolyanu intimately well, in terms of political division it seems that the main difference between the two is that the stakes are higher in the latter, and the den-den board has on it many more blues and blacks. Anyway, even the mighty Engsvan Hla Ganga not only fell, but disappeared beneath the waves. Stability? I agree with HiTimko that ditlana cleanses excessive architectural growths from cities and I feel that there is considerable merit in his idea that this cleansing extends to the reduction of excessive political and factional growths as well. There is a similarity here with the consecration of warriors, in which youths put aside the diversions of childhood, and with the rites associated with joining a legion or temple, in which an adult discards the encumbrances of civilian life. These life events may be seen as ditlana on a personal scale. Only by discarding the inessential can we steel ourselves and find the necessary focus that vigorous noble action requires. Ditlana serves a similar life-event role in a city's skein of destiny. Ah, yes, indeed. Yet, while this is Lord Karakan's view of things, the colors of the weaver's skein penetrate more deeply and more finally (with red the brightest, of course). Warriors are consecrated only superficially in ceremonies, but fully when covered in blood -- their own or that of the enemy, or both. In HiKetkolel's analogy, moving the essential items out of a clan house to be razed in a ditlana is akin to the rites he speaks of: ditlana on the clan scale. But at the scale of the city, the ditlana -- the RENEWAL -- consists in the levelling and RAZING { :) } of those buildings not destined to survive. Each legion, each cohort, is renewed not upon the parade stand, but through attrition in battle. So is a city. I must take issue with HiTimko's theological contention that ditlana seems not to fit well into the weltanschauung of those who serve Stability. HiTimko remarks, quite perceptively for a barbarian from a realm barren of magic and ignorant of the Gods, that ditlana serves a time marking function. I can think of few better metaphors for Stability than the ticking of a clock. From a social perspective, without the periodic re-starting of civic affairs through ditlana, major Change of a slow incremental character would develop in directions that are unguessable. This "progress", as I think Terrans call it, is the very antithesis of Stability and ditlana is one of the institutions by which progress is suppressed and Stability maintained. The Terrans, I have heard, often mistake "process" for "progress," implying that all change is directed (implying order, hence Stability). Butrus HiTimko may have made that mistake. Congratulations to the Temple of Karakan and Imel HiKaltkolel for putting "time marking" into the box of Stability. Yet, as it does not belong there, it will not stay. When any Jakallani can say, 'My clan house was built after the passage of Emperor Hirkane, "The Stone Upon Whom the Universe Rests,"' what his mind knows is that there is a time when the clan house was NOT there, but now IS. This is a hallmark of Change, albeit of a very minor sort. It is often thought that any form of destruction serves Change. Not so! We at the temple of Karakan are quite comfortable with the idea of supporting Stability through selective destruction. Ditlana is an excellent example of selective destruction in the interest of Stability. {A gale of dark laughter.} Lord Karakan's priests prattle about battle as if it is something predictable, can be controlled. (This seems to have been the case of one Terran general with the weird name of "Robert McNamara.") Destruction is a _process_ which, once begun, cannot necessarily be controlled. The historical notes on past ditlana ceremonies, such as I have seen, inevitably note a case in which buildings that were to be preserved have their foundations undermined and collapse. The poor engineers are faulted for this, as if Change, once begun, is subject to control by Stability. HiTimko speculates that failure to observe ditlana in the last 800 years has caused the present unpleasantness in Tsolyani political affairs. While I am unable to comment on the analysis by which he reaches this conclusion, since it involves consideration of "progressive" development in the absence of ditlana and that is a mode of historical study that I am unfamiliar with, I feel that his conclusion is correct. The Gods weave the skeins of imperial destinies and there is a strong whiff of Divine Retribution in the succession crisis. We know that failure to do ditlana does not please the Gods! "Progressive?" Not at all. A man who simply eats and excretes without movement will die. A chlen beast will suffer and perhaps die if its hide is never pealed. Process has no necessary relation to progress. Exercise for the man and pealing for the chlen are processes that result in health, but no "progress." Change or have one's skein cut most short by the weaver. It is instructive to note that the body of a fresh corpse is a heavy weight, but flexible, changeable. A body dead for some days is not only stiff and stable, it also stinks. I disagree with his opinion that a stronger empire would not have such factional opposition to Dich'une. No empire, at any time, could tolerate the theft of the Petal Throne by such illegitimate means. Noble Imel, had the Empire been stronger, a conniving vainglorious {more personal invective} like Dhich'une would never have been able to steal the throne. I humbly suggest that in a healthy empire, anyone strong enough create a one-person kolumejalim would be capable of holding the empire together. Peter HiTimko sees a silver lining in the current political situation, in that a war of succession will serve as a ditlana on an empire-wide scale. I don't think that any analogy can be drawn between the random devastation of civil war and the orderly elimination of ditlana. I do, however, see the prospect of a golden lining: if Eselne should ascend the throne with Kettukal as his general and with all the vital forces of the empire already mobilised for war, Yan Kor will be crushed and Livyanu will slip from Mu'ugalavyani hands into ours with ease. We would then be three fifths of the way towards reuniting the five empires in a second Engsvlan Hla Ganga. Of course a servant of Stability would create the oxymoronic concept of "orderly destruction" -- the obvious binary partner of "random devastation." One may perhaps note how prominent fire is as a weapon in civil war, fire the purifier {untranslatable monologue on the virtues of "uncontrolled destruction"}. Fire may not be predictable by those who care about prediction, but that does not quite mean that it is utterly random. Similarly, someone with Stability naivete about warfare may conclude that a unified and mobilised Tsolyanu would be able to conquer all after civil war. There is, of course, the problem of civil unrest is some areas and probable heavy losses to many legions; the terrain of Yan Kor would require individual large garrisons in the cities to actually hold the place with supply lines running thousands of Tsan through non- pacified territory; and while Livynau without Livyani might be manageable, I think the situation will not be so easy. In any case, I doubt that between the two of them Prince Eselne and his pet general have the brains to effect noble Imel HiKetkolel's daydream. I welcome this opportunity for dialogue with a Terran and I urge all Terrans to get around to ditlana as soon as they can. Clearly their culture is deeply mired in the quicksands of progress. Yes Terrans captive to progress, Stability captive to oversimplification through imposition of an ordered gestalt on a Changing world. The concept of the "dialectic" introduced to me by Butrus HiTimko is a way around these twin maladies, encaspulating at once as it does both being and becoming. Perhaps we can begin a dialectical process may result not only in Change, but perhaps even "flames." Bakheel HiSheschel, Black Hood, Fasiltum (translated and edited by Peter Timko) ----- //578 [Moderator's Note: Gordon Neff advances a theory about the Mihalli. ] [ Also: Nexus is back up, but I have noted some heat problems with ] [ it. So, it may be up and down for the next few days. ] Previous comments from the Professor >I doubt if (the Mihalli) venture that far. I suspect not. >Occasionally they drop >hints about the places they visit, but these are disconnected, fragmentary, >and seen through the eyes (and other senses) of creatures that lack our >nice, "solid" perceptions of time and space.' In reading all of this about the Mihalli, it gradually dawned on me-- it wasn't -avarice- which caused that 'king' of the Latter Times to drop 'one of the last planetary bombs' on the Mihalli-- it's cuz they's the bustards what DID for Tekumel! He must have figured this out on his own. 'Twarn't no 'natural phenomenon'; it were THEIR doin', it was! Buncha weirdo monsters... Who knows, really-- if the cause -isn't- known then speculation -must- include the arguably strangest race present, one which seems to 'swim' through Other Planes anyway. Perhaps he really did know something we don't-- any evidence or records on the matter were blowtorched off the face of the planet along with him. Hmm? P.S. "Have you seen (Star Trek III), Phil? If not, let's try to find a copy for you to view." Only the last fifteen, twenty minutes of the movie are relevant; I see no reason to inflict the rest of it on him. Take it from the bottom, rather than 'from the top.' [Moderator's Note: I believe he was going to check this out. If not, next ] [ time I visit we'll check it out. ] ----- //579 [Moderator's Note: Joe Saul makes more comments on the Semaphore topic. ] [ Joe also made an important point to me, and I agree with] [ him. We would like people to please be sure to somehow ] [ separate their replies from what they are replying to. ] [ I do this with the "less than" symbols. That way I can ] [ show multiple layers of conversation. This will help me] [ out, as well as all the other readers. ] > In case no one figures this out-- which someone almost certainly >will; membership on this mailing list could be construed as an intelligence >test of no small utility-- there's a party game where the players sit in a >circle, and a short phrase is given to the first player. He whispers it >into his neighbor's ear, and he in turn whispers it, and so on around the >circle. > What emerges at the end of the process is wildly and strangely >distorted. Comparison of this mangled product with the original is often >hilarious-- the source of the game's amusement. I hadn't thought of this one. Any anthropologists out there know whether this game works in a culture with a strong oral tradition? I would think people would be better at repeating even long phrases verbatim if they weren't used to depending on written communications. (I'd assume Tsolyanu has a strong oral tradition, at least among the lower lasses, as published literacy rates for them are not high.) > It's the concept of 'cumulative error.' Despite all safeguards, >'best guesses' at ambiguity will snowball-- any message sent by semaphore >telegraph will eventually deteriorate beyond comprehension. Simple code >groups can forestall this, but suffer the hazard of correspondingly massive >information loss-- was that number 116 or 110? The entire sense of the >message may depend on which it was... Mm. Historically, how bad a problem was this? My guess is not terribly so -- that people who use this system take the bandwidth hit and transmit relatively simple messages with a lot of effort rather than risking misinterpretation. Joe ---- //580 [Moderator's Note: Tom Robertson expounds on the Cataclysm. I only had a ] [ text based email reader at the time I prepared this and ] [ Tom sent a document that included accents etc, which ] [ appear as garbage characters in my mail program. I ] [ tried to carefully replace them, but if I mangled any- ] [ thing Tom, I sincerely apologize. ] My research has found a document that may pertain to the current discussion on the Cataclysm. The document is in some strange unknown language with an attached summary in Ancient Tysolani quoted below: "At the "Time of the Lost Planets", the known galaxy appeared to be cut in half by a long line of "lost planets". This group of researchers have found that a few of the Ancient's gates between worlds appear to be functioning and at great risk (step into a gate the wrong colour - is to be never seen again) we explored. What was found was the "lost worlds" still exist in some type of bubble universe of just one sun, but many changes have been wroth by the Cataclysm. We have been able to visit some four of these bubble universes so far and observed the strange civilisations that have developed. We have seen the strange occurrence of new phenomena called "Magic" as well as the appearance of more psionic afflicted people. Technology as we know has disappeared although functioning items can be seen, but to purchase these is very expensive on all these worlds. Races of our Galaxy appear to be represented on each of these worlds but on some, strange new beasts/intelligent? lifeforms appears to have evolved, (or been developed ?), many we enchanted very unpleasant. Time also has changed, with dates of the Cataclysm quite different from that recorded in what we now refer to as our home galaxy (which we hope one day to return to with our interesting observations). We will continue to search for the next gate in the hope it will return us to our own galaxy and leave this record should someone follow us, or someone from this world use the gates and find themselves in our galaxy. In the meantime we will continue to try and find what caused the planets to disappear into these bubble universes - we speculate some type of alien space drive system as the line of lost planets was very straight. The attached document in Standard Galaxy details our travels to date, and thanks to our friend here for scribing this note for the local researchers to study. We are leaving this record should any follow us from our Galaxy. --- The accuracy of the above is suspect as the parchment is very old, although the attached document is in perfect condition. Maybe one day I can persuade the powers to be to allow me to explore further the possibilities of other worlds trapped in bubble universes (whatever they are??), if only I knew where one of those gates were. Grey Cloak Clan, Jakalla Purchravu Aqebange hiPazykho, Thumis Lay Priest & Scholar, ----- The above come from the developments in our role playing game, where the missing worlds have exercised our minds a lot, so I hope this will spark some comments. Regards Tom ----- //581 [Moderator's Note: Matthew Pook on the possible origin of Sakbe and Ditlana.] [ Any more info, Professor? ] [ Joe Saul notes in message 579, that he meant "lower ] [ classes" not "lower lasses" as appeared in the message. ] Last night (04/11/97) there was an interesting programme on TV that [Moderator's Note: In the US, we do Month/Day/Year, where just about every- ] [ one else does Day/Month/Year. As Matthew is from the UK,] [ this means Nov 4, 1997. I am not that far behind! :) ] explored the culture of the Maya (Central American culture at its height from about 400AD to 800AD) in light the work done on translating their heiroglyphs. The previous opinion of them had portrayed them as a scientifically advanced, peaceful people. The translations disproved this, showing them to be blood thirsty, constantly seeking to appease their gods with blood sacrifice. One or two things struck me with regard to Tekumel. I may not be entirely accurate as I was tired and not taking notes ... 1. Firstly was the ideas behind the symbol for life and their symbol of the cosmos. This was based upon their ideas of direction. Life came from the East, West was the source of death and so on. In one aspect of this symbol (which was cross shaped) was a road that ran from West to East, from death to life, what they called the 'road of life' or 'Sakbe'. You can imagine the bells going off in my head. Is this the source of the roads accross Tsolyanu? In name at least, if not format. 2. The programme also showed a royal palace/temple complex that had half of it torn away (literally cut in half) by a river. This exposed to the archaeologists how the top building had been built upon over another and so and so on, right back to the original temple/tomb. (Amazingly the actual founder of the city/culture and first of a dynasty was unearthed. It turns out that he was from central Mexico and a foreigner and was always portrayed with circular eye pieces - the source for the whole 'Charriots of the Gods' idea ...) Is this building over of tombs and the like, the souce of Ditlana? In light of these two questions, I wondered just how much this culture influenced that of Tekumel? -- Pookie URL: http://arts.falmouth.ac.uk/journalism/PAGES/Welcome.htm ----- //582 [Moderator's Note: Leonard Erickson adds to the discussion about Semaphores.] > "-- As an exercise for the alert reader, can you tell me the single >biggest pitfall with this system? Hint: What range limits might exist?" > > In case no one figures this out-- which someone almost certainly >will; membership on this mailing list could be construed as an intelligence >test of no small utility-- there's a party game where the players sit in a >circle, and a short phrase is given to the first player. He whispers it >into his neighbor's ear, and he in turn whispers it, and so on around the >circle. > What emerges at the end of the process is wildly and strangely >distorted. Comparison of this mangled product with the original is often >hilarious-- the source of the game's amusement. > > It's the concept of 'cumulative error.' Despite all safeguards, >'best guesses' at ambiguity will snowball-- any message sent by semaphore >telegraph will eventually deteriorate beyond comprehension. Simple code >groups can forestall this, but suffer the hazard of correspondingly massive >information loss-- was that number 116 or 110? The entire sense of the >message may depend on which it was... Actually, you don't get *nearly* as much distortion, as with the party game because the message is sent one letter at a time. So while this could result in a word being mispelled between two stations, the structure of just about any language will result in the error being obvious in most cases. As an example, the equivalent "party game" would be for you to write down your message, then read ot to the next person one letter at a time. They write it down as you read it. Then they repeat the process with the next person. And in practice, after receiving a message (or section of message if it's a big message) you send it back to the other station. If you got it right, they just send back an "ok" signal. If it isn't, they send you the correction. > The main value of the 'semaphore telegraph' is that it not only >-can- work with Tekumeli knowledge, but it suits the culture also. Any >civilization so deeply entrenched and well organized that it can build >Sakbe Roads, and enforce the rules of those Roads across the entire domain, >could build and employ such semaphores with ease. Would anybody be interested in a Tsolyani semaphore code? I could probably draw one up once I dig up my copy of the alphabet. > For that matter, given how hellishly predominant the Sun is, it is >easy to imagine equally Brobdignagian heliograph mirrors-- perhaps swung up >and down with ropes pulled by slaves. Tsolyani does not lend itself to >Morse code, of course, but such signal-mirrors were used for centuries by >cultures Samuel Morse never -heard- of. The flash of such titanic >heliographs could be seen as far away as the horizon permitted. Again, such >installations could not be thrown up overnight-- but this is Tsolyanu, land >of massive masonry. They -could- be constructed. If you give me a letter frequency table for Tsolyani (ie a list of letters from most common to least common in "normal" text) I could do up a "morse code" also. > You'd be surprised at how much information can be transmitted >between dawn and sunset, by those trained in its communication. And if you can use either magical light sources or bright (but small) fires, you can even send messages at night. Not with mirrors, but by masking and unmasking the fire. But the transmission rate will be a *lot* slower (at least with fire where you have to make sure that flickers aren't confused with deliberate maskings). BTW, I figured out the big disadvantage of semaphores and heliographs. Regardless of how hard you try to keep it secret, some people *will* know the code, even if they have to figure it out by recording the "code sequences" and then trying to compare them to likely message texts. So you have to accept the idea that at least some of your messages will be known. You *can* encrypt them, but that makes sending and receiving them harder (you can't rely on the operators being able to automatically correct simple errors from context (eg "Sakbe rofd" to "Sakbe road") Still, it'll be worth it in most cases. And I'm sure that Tekumeli society can handle the situation of messages being "officially" secret but actually know widely to those "in the know". Heck, that's a *common* situation. As long as everyone *acts* as if they don't know (regardless of what behind the scenes measures they take based on their "forbidden" knowledge) then "face" is maintained and officials don't have to "take notice" of the *real* situation. :-) ps. speaking of codes, I assume that the list is aware of the fact that Tsolyani has a "code page" in the "official unofficial" Unicode registry? I can dig up the URL and post the code assignments if anyone is interested. -- Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow) shadow@krypton.rain.com <--preferred leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com <--last resort ----- //583 [Moderator's Note: Thomas Worthington adds to the Semaphores discussion. ] > "-- As an exercise for the alert reader, can you tell me the single >biggest pitfall with this system? Hint: What range limits might exist?" > > In case no one figures this out-- which someone almost certainly >will; membership on this mailing list could be construed as an intelligence >test of no small utility-- there's a party game where the players sit in a >circle, and a short phrase is given to the first player. He whispers it >into his neighbor's ear, and he in turn whispers it, and so on around the >circle. > What emerges at the end of the process is wildly and strangely >distorted. Comparison of this mangled product with the original is often >hilarious-- the source of the game's amusement. > > It's the concept of 'cumulative error.' Despite all safeguards, >'best guesses' at ambiguity will snowball-- any message sent by semaphore >telegraph will eventually deteriorate beyond comprehension. Simple code >groups can forestall this, but suffer the hazard of correspondingly massive >information loss-- was that number 116 or 110? The entire sense of the >message may depend on which it was... Actually, this is not the real problem for words sent this way, although for numbers it is. In transmissions data loss is based on the unit of communication. In the case of the chinese whispers the unit is the word and so it is words that get mangled. In most semaphore systems the unit is an individual character and this allows for much better error checking by the operator who knows that the word "teh" is probably a miss-sending of "the" from the context. A real physical problem on Tekumel is heat haze. The stations would have to be closer together or bigger than in France to be sure of being seen. either way this means more cost, material, and upkeep. There is a further, more psychological/magical problem which I'll mention below on the subject of Heliographs. By the way, did you know that the fax machine was introduced into France in the late 1800's? A British invention, no one would back the inventor here so he went across the Channel and set up the first system from Lille to Paris (I think). This sort of thing points up the differences between our world & Tekumel's for sheer pace of invention. > The main value of the 'semaphore telegraph' is that it not only >-can- work with Tekumeli knowledge, but it suits the culture also. Any >civilization so deeply entrenched and well organized that it can build >Sakbe Roads, and enforce the rules of those Roads across the entire domain, >could build and employ such semaphores with ease. > > As I recall sitting here, less is said in the S & G Sourcebook >about long-distance communication than could be. I retain the impression of >temple telepaths and jogging Imperial couriers-- yet it is also said that >there are no such things, really, as 'local ordinances'; what is legal in >Avanthar is legal in Do Chaka. That both implies and very much requires >fast, reliable, most of all -commonplace- communication. Local >jurisprudence will depend on knowing what legal decisions have been made, >what precedents have been established, &c. > > Such a vast and ancient Empire cannot be held together with >Kuni-birds... Tell that to the Incas who had an empire almost as long (N-S) as Tsolyanu! Or the Russians, or the Mongols, or the Chinese, or Alexander, or... Horses help but are not compulsory. > For that matter, given how hellishly predominant the Sun is, it is >easy to imagine equally Brobdignagian heliograph mirrors-- perhaps swung up >and down with ropes pulled by slaves. Tsolyani does not lend itself to >Morse code, of course, but such signal-mirrors were used for centuries by >cultures Samuel Morse never -heard- of. The flash of such titanic >heliographs could be seen as far away as the horizon permitted. Indeed:- friend or foe for miles around could see your messages. Not the sort of secretive communication the five empires like. >Again, such >installations could not be thrown up overnight-- but this is Tsolyanu, land >of massive masonry. They -could- be constructed. > > You'd be surprised at how much information can be transmitted >between dawn and sunset, by those trained in its communication. > >--G. >----- In a world of mind powers it is too easy to find the keys to codes for messages which can be seen by anyone who wants to. At least if the message is secret having the key to any code is only half the battle. Thomas Worthington ----- //584 [Moderator's Note: Professor Barker answers some questions from Pat Brady ] [ about some of the other worlds effected by the Cataclysm.] >>Other worlds: In a previous mailing there was a mention of developing one >>of the other worlds which fell out of Humanspace around the same time as >>Tekumel. I would be interested in trying that. I would be particularly >>interested >>in developing a world in which the Pe Choi and the Pachi Lei were more >>widespread (because I've always liked them), but which had the same lack of >>horses, metals etc as Tekumel. Would this be acceptable ? Yes, of course. Go right ahead and produce whatever you feel is interesting and realistic. Be as complete -- and complex -- as you like. >>If so could a world designation be suggested ? May I reccomend a star >>such as >>Wolf 430 which is an interesting, but little researched, variable star >>(to give >>some atmospheric anomalies and wild seasonal changes)? How did you know that Wolf 430 has planets and is one of the outposts of Pe Choi space? It is not on the initial list of "disappeared" worlds, but it may be on a later list. Not all of these planetary systems disappeared exactly simultaneously. >>Are the Hlyss and >>the Ssu likely to be found on other worlds than Tekumel, or were there other >>inimical species who were confined to their homeworlds as well ? The Ssu and Hluss are localised on Tekumel. They seem to have had rudimentary spaceflight within their own system, but some scholars doubt even that. There are plenty of "nasties," though, on other planets. Some species are indeed confined to their home worlds, while others either developed low-level spaceflight or else were transported here and there. Various species were imported to Tekumel as zoological exhibits, specimens, etc. -- and when the Cataclysm came, many died while others excaped to adapt to Tekumel. Regards, Phil ----- //585 [Moderator's Note: More technology on Tekumel from James Snead. ] Another remark on technology and Tekumel; one element which should be emphasized here is the role of "prestige" in the adoption of technological items. It has been demonstrated that chlen hide weapons are effective and cheap, while bronze is heavy and expensive; the desirability of bronze for certain parties seems to be more closely associated with the status of the weapons, perhaps since those in circulation are often of some antiquity. In a conservative tradition, such equipment would display a tangible association with noble traditions of the past, thereby increasing the status of its owner. Bronze isn't "better", technologically speaking, but the prestige conferred by wielding an Engsvanyali sword would be coveted by those who could afford it. There are numerous examples of this behavior in human prehistory. Native American cultures in contact with euro-americans in the 18th and 19th centuries often designed clubs which looked like gun stocks; guns themselves were prestigous, and if you didn't have one, you might as well fight with something that looked like one. Swords buried in bronze-age barrows in northern Europe were much harder to obtain than spears, and by placing them with the deceased owner were thus removed from use; the prestige they conferred was more valuable than their efficiency, since otherwise the leader might have passed it on to his descendants. Value is thus a culturally-relative term. While efficiency is central to the euro-american ideal of progress, prestige is often of greater importance in non-european traditions, which the status-conscious societies of Tekumel more closely resemble. James Snead ----- //586 [Moderator's Note: Chuck Monson passes a bit of native advice on with ] [ respect to asking about ancient shrines and temples. ] [Further Note: I have set up some automation for messages 586 to 599. I am ] [ going to start 586, and it will automatically start 587, etc ] [ until 599 is sent. Hopefully there won't be any problems, ] [ and I will check it throughout the day. This will clear most] [ of the backlog. I didn't like grouping the messages, so ] [ these are single messages. ] Know noble seeker, that the references you have made to abandoned temple lands are unfortunately inaccurate. After certain inquiries made on your behalf, I humbly offer for your edification the gleanings of my years here in the temple libraries at Tumissa regarding many sites named in your missive. I should most earnestly provide these rare scrolls for your perusal here in temple quarters as my guest. I assure you that you shall all the time you need to study them. Rahar Librarian Temple of Durritlamish Tumissa ----- //587 [Moderator's Note: Professor Barker answers various questions from Charlie ] [ Goering about Legion Administration. ] I don't have much information on the points Charlie raises. The best I can do is as follows: >I know you must be busy, but, I have a few more questions about Tsolyani >Legions. >1. Is there a formalized purchase system for commissions in the Tsolyani Army, > similar to the old British Army, or is the system of "inducements" less > structured? I assume the level of inducements varies based on the unit in > question, is this correct? The system is less structured than the 17th-19th Century British structure. As far as I know, it is clan membership -- and lineage status within the clan -- that gets one a fancy military post. Personal charisma plays some part, too, as do occasional real gifts and/or favours to important officials and army officers. After all, if the relevant Molkar or Dritlan is a fellow clan member and belongs to the same or a related lineage, and if he/she has been gifted with a parcel of nice land and some mercantile privileges, one can logically expect that one's offspring will be welcomed into the officer's legion. Not to admit the kid would be impolite... >2. How large is the headquarters staff of a Legion of heavy infantry? That is, > personnel in addition the the officers in charge of each cohort. It seems > logical to assume that there would have to be a staff to co-ordinate the > training, supply, and personnel activities of a Legion and attached as > supernumerary to the command staff' Headquarters staffs differ from legion to legion, sometimes due to an individual general's preferences, sometimes to tradition, etc. Usually about 100-500 elite guards are employed to protect the general's tent; 50-100 scribes, servants, Aide-de-camps, etc. will form the general's official support stamff; there will be a messhall staff of about 50-75; adjunct, liaison, and supply officers whose numbers change almost every day, and numbers of hangers-on, concubines, whores, entertainers, and the whole Imperial dog-and-pony ("Renyu-lel-Chlen"?) show. It is very hard to be precise since these entourages differ so much. One of the high priests of Lord Hnalla was constantly attended by about 700 people whenever he left his temple's premises. He even had a choir of singers, poets, and musicians who sat below his dais in his bedroom and recorded even his most intimate acts in words of glowing praise. What his various bedmates thought about this is not recorded. >3. I'm working on some write-ups of the activities of the 22 Imperial Heavy > Infantry in the recent Yan Kor war, mostly small-scale battles. As I > attempt to maintain accuracy with mainstream Tekumel, I would like to > know if any of the senior officers in the Legion have been (other than > our beloved commander, Lord Gamalu) have been officially identified. None that I know of. I'll check my files when I get a chance. The legion is supporting Eselne and is the backbone of his battle-line down near Mrelu. Gamalu has quietly put it about that Prince Eselne will make him High Chancellor in Avanthar, once the Civil War is won. >Thank you for your attention to the above questions > >Sincerely, >Charlie Goering. ----- //588 [Moderator's Note: Gordon Neff comments on responses to his messages on ] [ Tekumel's acceptance of technology. ] >[Moderator's Note: James Eckman, Patrick Brady, and Sean Boomer all make good] >[ points about differing aspects of the issue dealing with ] >[ introducing new technologies onto a society like that of ] >[ Tekumel's. ] >[James Eckman writes...] >There have been many cultures that have decided for the majority of their >members that it's better to be a dead traditionalist than a live innovator. >Some of the Amerindian tribes made those types of decisions. The survivors >of these tribes would be considered misfits and outcasts to the older >tribal >customs. Hitler and his bad boys kept fighting a clearly lost war even >though it would devastate their own country. People and cultures are not >rational, faced with a large influx of innovation minded, western techie >outlook type people, Tsolyanu might have a real problem. But they don't, >because this outlook doesn't exist in any vast scale on Tekumel. Basically >accept the Professor's premises is what I would suggest. --- >[Patrick Brady writes...] >A thought about gunpowder and magic. >Magic isn't sufficiently rare on Tekumel to be very threatened by >even fairly advanced gunpowder. Frankly, Tsolyani sorcery would >probably be more effective against a 16th century musketeer line or >even 18th century artillery than it is against the present enemies >of the Empire. >Hostile sorcery would make handling black powder a form of suicide. >Given the interest the Temple of Vimuhla has in pyrotechnics and the >availability of relatively low level telekinetic spells, it would be >a brave man or a fool who wandered the battlefield festooned with >quantities of black powder. With spells that create water, wind and >fire anything from before the sealed cartridge would be much less >useful than it may first appear. Standing next to a muzzle loading >cannon, and the piles of gunpowder barrels they required to service >them, would not be a significant contribution to your personal glory >or lifespan. >Given the relatively widespread use of spells of warding, it would >not be possible to shatter infantry lines at range with gunfire in >set piece battles. At least with arrows something big and sharp will >fall (slowly) through the warding. It seems to me that you need >the sorcerers at least as much as a defense as an offence, without >them it would take a great technological improvement to avoid >suffering huge losses. And if you must have them for defence... >Hauling carts: Even if you could do it on the Sakbe, you would have >no chance on even moderately rough ground. A horse produces a lot >more power and traction than a human. Anything capable of similar >would no longer be describable as a human. >Actually the situation on Tekumel always strikes me as horrifyingly >plausible. Once you understand its precepts, the axioms just roll >into place :-) The Professor has written new rules, that is really >what makes it so much fun. >Regards, Patrick --- >[Sean Boomer writes...] >Hi there! I'm a little new to this game system, but a couple of things >strike me about Gordon's comments about gunpowder and spells. First of >all, regarding gunpowder. It does not follow that just because a high >ranking scholar makes an exploding powder someone will think up a >musket-like device to accompany it. The Chinese DID put gunpowder to >military use, but primarily to confuse and disrupt enemy lines >(firecrackers). In hindight I don't see any reason for them to have >thought of anything else. I know that nothing like the musket would have >occurred to me if I had never heard of the concept. It was probably >serendipity that led to the invention of cannon, and from this the musket. >Secondly - wouldn't powerful magical interests move in to block any mass >use of spells (or gunpowder) by the common field soldier? After all, a lot >of powerful wizards would lose out on a great source of wealth and prestige >(serving as magical battlefield support). >I think it would be a very brave general who would risk the wrath of >powerful sorcerers. >Cheers, >Sean ----- In regards to the points made by Messers Brady and Boomer: BOTH of you contrived to miss my point ENTIRELY! Who CARES about gunpowder, as such? Even if you had it, what are you going to make the musket-barrels from-- bamboo?! I only mentioned it because of WHY it became so widely used, not HOW; it didn't require years and years of intensive schooling just to make it fizzle slightly, never mind going 'boom'-- THAT was the point! Grrr... Still, given this Basic Mistake, you made some good points; I sure wouldn't enjoy hefting sacks of powder around, knowing that 'fire-sparking' is something a jack-priest of Vimuhla can do by -sneezing- wrong... And I have no doubt that attempts to use fifteenth-century musketeers would, indeed, encounter the singular problems mentioned. [Moderator's Note: Me either!] As to your comment about horses producing more power and traction-- ever been at the losing end of a tug-of-war? You get enough people, you can drag any horse. (Besides, 'not describable as human' was precisely what I was thinking anyway. These would be extremely similar to -gorillas-, in their build, their strength and their intelligence.) [Moderator's Note: As Patrick pointed out. Hauling a cart with a long ] [ line of Gorilla-like humanoids would probably work on ] [ a Sakbe road, it probably wouldn't work in any kind of] [ terrain. Even with a moderate line of Gorilla-men ] [ would be difficult in terrain. (IMHO) ] Now, Sean Boomer did point out something interesting. "Wouldn't powerful magical interests move in to block any mass use of spells (or gunpowder) by the common field soldier?" Which interests are these? The ones still clutching their half-read scrolls, staring at soldiers' pikes? Seriously, though, you may have an extremely good point. The idea of an entire cohort (I was being a bit ambitious, saying 'Legion' earlier) chanting out their rote-learned 'kill' spell is all very well, IF that was how battles were fought. [Moderator's Note: Major problem here is that Magic use requires high levels] [ of intelligence, Psychic Ability, and Resevoir. This ] [ combination is apparently not found often. I don't think] [ most foot soldiers have the requisite ability to pop off ] [ doomkills. Even if they could learn the spell. What is ] [ worse, consider the average grunt, starting his doomkill ] [ (along with a dozen of his buddies) and they get a bit ] [ excited, or some arrows fall into their ranks, right at ] [ the time the spell is forming. Kaboom, there goes your ] [ army! Decimated by your own doomkills. At least the ] [ enemy appreciated the pretty light show and sends you ] [ scampering back to your homes instead of taking you ] [ prisoner. (Also, who wants 8000 people knowing doomkill ] [ spells scampering about after they muster out? Not Me! ] [ If you could remove the ability after they retire, that ] [ would be more preferable, but costly and time consuming. ] It's not. Further, given the entire 'little war' concept, even IF some priest, perhaps a renegade, were willing to teach the spell, it is indeed unlikely that a General would LET him. "It's just not DONE, you know, old boy. It's -not cricket-." (In hindsight, during any Presidential address of Congress it would have been not only possible but very easy for a 'suicide bomber' to have taken out President Lincoln AND the entire Congressional leadership at one stroke, doing incalculable damage to the Union war-fighting ability during the American Civil War. Fine: Imagine even -suggesting- such a tactic to a Confederate General. You would be regarded as hopelessly mad-- or worse. A more shameful, ignoble, horrendous act they could not imagine. They'd step on you like a bug, taking you for one.) The idea, that just because you -can- do something does not mean that you -ought-, brings me to Mr Eckman's comments. Somehow I can hear Dinah Shore singing, "East is East, and West is West / And the wrong one I have chose..." There are only two observations I can make to his statements: Even in the most hide-bound cultures, people themselves aren't stupid; they -do- think, they do figure things out, and while in the West, the rationale for building that better mousetrap has been to enrich the inventor, it's also perfectly possible-- and a great many astounding examples exist-- to do something equally brilliant merely 'for the greater glory of God.' [Moderator's Note: But, if that mousetrap steps on the toes of a clan that ] [ has provided mousetraps for centuries, and has ears in ] [ high places, it may mean that you get squashed like the ] [ bug you mentioned above. On Tekumel, tradition seems to] [ roll on like a huge boulder, sometimes squashing inno- ] [ vations that would help people as well as those that ] [ wouldn't or don't matter. ] If it also fills the coffers of your Temple, well, hey... [Moderator's Note: If it filled the Temple coffers, they would probably ] [ work out a way to help you. Incentives, you know! :) ] [ My guess is that you clan-master would try to approach ] [ the other and work out some type of cross-trade, with ] [ your mousetrap as a significant trading item. It might ] [ even result in some type of business merger. You may ] [ find yourself on that clan's mousetrap design team! ] The other point is a bit more prosaic: The campaign wherein that originated -did- have 'western techie outlook type people' in it-- the ship's complement of a small scoutcraft that accidentally entered the Tuleng system, and was basically stranded there. These guys had to make a living some way... ("Basically accept the Professor's premises is what I would suggest." I have all along, thank you, to the very extent that I -should-. Your character isn't mentioned in any of his writings, is he? So in creating that character, by definition you've stepped outside those premises also, haven't you? Besides, one of his premises is that none of this is necessarily fixed in stone anyway.) --G. ----- //589 [Moderator's Note: Gordon Neff continues about the Star Trek Vulcan temple, ] [ and asks the Professor his opinions on the look and feel ] [ of the Vulcan temple. ] "Anybody write them down? I'm just curious. Maybe the designer tried to make a joke in English using Tsolyani characters?" No, it's nothing that lengthy-- nor that specific. It's only six, maybe eight characters, and after close examination with EPT rules in hand, I'm starting to think that they're a Hyksos 'cartouche'-- a meaningless scrawl that LOOKS extremely authentic, at any rate... In short, I've yet to make an exact match, but even the most casual inspection would ring a bell instantly-- as indeed it did. (Artistic license, undoubtedly. The script's appearance is part of the 'Tekumel look,' so the designer hummed a bar and faked the rest.) But you DID see the movie? I'd have liked to have heard your first impressions of that concluding 'Vulcan Temple' scene. From the first establishing shot onwards was like the 'Swords and Glory' cover art recreated. I was utterly astounded. Finding an 'artist's conception' of Tsolyani script included in the package was just icing on the cake. --G. "I wrote away at once to the figure manufacturer -- and soon received a reply in *Tsolyani*! You can imagine the stunned shock...! It turned out that the figure-designer had a longstanding love for Tekumel." Yes...? Imagine HIS shock, at first receiving your letter! -- I can certainly imagine it, recalling my astounded delight here, the first time that you, The Man Himself, replied to a comment that I had made. Me. After twenty-two years, actual -response-, interaction-- had my Tactical Studies Rules book from 1975 abruptly spoken out loud I could have been no more floored. (One advantage to this newsgroup: After all of that time, I finally know why the cover art on those 1975 EPT rules is signed 'P.B.' I'd have certainly never guessed 'Phil'...) ----- //590 [Moderator's Note: Gary Mengle comments on the 3 Light Drive and puts forth ] [ an interesting theory. ] >[Moderator's Note: Gordon Neff asks about the 3 light drive. ] >Nuno's original question. >>>7 - Did Prof. Barker ever elaborate on how the 3-light-drive and the >>>FTL technology worked ? Can you tell me the average speed or travel-time >>>of a spaceship ? >Professor's Answer >>Not a clue. I am not a technician! In fact I can barely use this computer. >>You'll have to inquire from one of the Pe Choi. >That's a question I've always wondered myself. That's an -awfully- >specific name to be so formless in concept. 'Three light?' >The name suggests a drive that 'travels' at 3c, and certainly that >would -help-, but to reach Tau Ceti, favored possibility of having >Earth-like planets, you're still looking at a voyage of four years >duration... one way. >[Moderator's Note: When I spoke with Phil today, here is what he said about ] >[ the 3 light drive. There is not much known about it, of ] >[ course, but he felt that the 3-lights referred to what ] >[ was seen of the ship entering FTL speeds from a companion] >[ ship at a point somewhere nearby in regular space. ] >[ Apparently there are 3 "bursts" of light in succession as] >[ the ships translate to FTL speeds. More than this is ] >[ just not known. (I asked him what it looked like from the] >[ cockpit/bridge, but he didn't know.) ] Here's another, slightly different, possible explanation for how the drive might work, based on the idea that the "three-light" bit may not be meant entirely literally. As we know, "light" is just electromagnetic radiation, within a relatively narrow band of the entire spectrum. It seems to me that if an entity from an advanced technological race, who had a good understanding of electromagnetism and saw its different manifestations as variations of the same form of energy, were trying to describe, say, radio waves or x-rays, to someone without any foundation in the (modern or futuristic) sciences, said entity might well describe different electromagnetic radiations as different kinds of "light." Perhaps the drive uses (or emits) radiation of three specific wavelengths when it is used to propel spacecraft or whatever at faster-than-light speeds. The wavelengths might vary according to some arcane method of drive calibration, or might relate to the distance the drive was meant to travel. This is just meant to spark thought. Honestly, I don't need to know how the Three Light Drive *really* works... it's more interesting if kept mysterious. -- ironczar@erienet.net http://erienet.net/~ironczar ----- //591 [Moderator's Note: Bob Alberti provides some information about Tekumel, or ] [ Nu Ophiuchi. ] >[Stephen Foster adds...] >My records indicate that it lies about 150 light years away and is a giant >star of spectral class K0III. It has an absolute magnitude of about -5, >which would make it about 10,000 time brighter than the Sun. It's probably >a massive star with a short life-span before it goes "kablooie" in some >style. It's unlikely to have planets and it's too young for life to have >evolved even if it did. The Ssu may or may not have been the native life form on Tekumel, although those present when the Human-Pe Choi empire bumped into them certainly believed they were. Possibly existing theories of evolution simply did not take into account so energetic a solar system, where the extreme amounts of solar energy stimulated the early development of life on its planets. Certain scholars, whose theories were widely ridiculed before Tekumel fell into its own spacetime, believed that life was inevitable on any reasonably nonhomogeouns planetary system, given the continual input of solar energy and sufficient chemical building blocks. Under their theories, life could evolve rapidly following the formation of planetary bodies meeting the basic requirements. Tekumel, at the time of its discovery by humans, was covered in a thick gaseous soup rich with amino acids which offered plenty of biochemical building blocks, and shielded the surface from most of the lethal radiation. While this combination of a ridiculously bright star and a dense atmospheric blanket worked for the Ssu and the Hluss, it was useless as an interstellar way station to the humans and Pe Choi. To make the planet usable, they needed to strip away the thick and corrosive atmospheric blanket, but this of course would expose the surface to the incinerating rays of Sinistra Nu Ophiuchi. So they pared the star down to a reasonable size. The methods employed were fairly crude, and didn't allow for fine adjustments once they'd gotten it into the upper end of the G-class. They expected these steps to destroy all life on Tekumel above the bacterial level, but possibly this is where the evolutionary theories failed to account for the rapid adaptive changes possible under a high energy system. Or the Ssu and the Hluss may have had genetic technologies to adapt themselves and some native foods for survival. Or they may simply have been really, really tough. The effect upon Ssu vision of these changes is apparent. Some Latter-Time estimates placed the amount of UV radiation at the surface of the planet at about 1/3rd its cloudy pre-terraforming levels, meaning that during the day the Ssu see things at what would have been twilight levels of illumination, which might explain their comparatively large eyes. At night they carry UV lights which are visible to humans as dim blue lanterns. ----- On another matter, all orders for Mitlanyal have been signed by myself and the Professor, numbered, and mailed, and all checks deposited. I have braced myself for the responses, and am wearing a Kevlar body suit, with asbestos underwear. Anyone else who wants a copy need only mail a check for $20 to Bob Alberti 2732 40th Ave. S. Mpls, MN 55406 -- Bob Alberti http://freenet.msp.mn.us/~alberti alberti@freenet.msp.mn.us ERROR: file 'witty.signature' not found. ----- //592 [Moderator's Note: Steve Pisani responds to Dwight Grosso on Weapon Design ] [ and use. ] This is a belated reply to Dwight Grosso's comments about weapon design in message # 576. In my reading of history, SCA experience and gaming of Tekumelian battles, polearms certainly work for individuals and groups. There is no doubt that they can chop, jab or cut with great force and superior reach. Greek, Macedonian, Swiss and Spanish spear and pike formations won-or helped to win-a host of engagements. Certainly, many other armies relied on the spear as well. However, the combination of polearms with other melee weapons, flexible drill, initiative and combined-arms tactics defeated all of the phalanxes mentioned. The shortsword, and the excellent training used by the legions of the Roman Republic, countered spear and pike in the decisive battles of Ilipa, Zama, Cynocephalae, Magnesia and Pydna. All of the above engagements included the greater battlefield initiative possible when using sword-and-shield. Scipio Africanus' leadership obviously helped in the first two conflicts, but more typical Roman commanders destroyed the Macedonian and Seleucid armies in the latter three. In all five, spear and pike units were not able to protect their flanks against swordsmen - especially when a phalanx was advancing victoriously, as at Cynocephalae. As for the Swiss and the Spanish, field fortifications, slow, inefficient matchlock firearms, good (i.e. controllable) cavalry and combined arms tactics defeated their pike formations. The Swiss and Spanish leaders (when the former had any) refused to adapt their very successful methods to changing circumstances. Those leaders did not have claim to an Ever-Glorious method of war like that of Tekumel. Even in a world like Tekumel, where most units are armed with some kind of spear, pike or polearm: the Warhammer units primarily are not. Some Ahoggya use a spear or two, but a variation of the sword, axe or mace predominates with them, the Shen and the N'luss. Pikes and spears may form the structure of an army formation, but Warhammer units break it- with the combined action of their entire force. -Steve Pisani ----- //593 [Moderator's Note: John Smith adds to the Semaphores discussion. ] >> In case no one figures this out-- which someone almost certainly >>will; membership on this mailing list could be construed as an intelligence >>test of no small utility-- there's a party game where the players sit in a >>circle, and a short phrase is given to the first player. He whispers it >>into his neighbor's ear, and he in turn whispers it, and so on around the >>circle. >> What emerges at the end of the process is wildly and strangely >>distorted. Comparison of this mangled product with the original is often >>hilarious-- the source of the game's amusement. > >I hadn't thought of this one. Any anthropologists out there know whether this >game works in a culture with a strong oral tradition? I would think people >would be better at repeating even long phrases verbatim if they weren't used to >depending on written communications. Do not forget the priesthoods! Think of all the litanies and rituals they must commit to memory. To give a Terra example, in India the Brahmins developed a complex system of mnemonics that allowed them to memorise the Vedas without error. This involved memorising a second text of nonsense sylables that acted as a key to the real text so that any errors would be immediately noticed and corrected. This system is still in use today, as attested by my old Hinduism professor at Indiana University. Another example is that many Muslims will memorise the entire Koran, a book about the length of the New Testament. I have also heard that in Shakespears day it would not be unusual for someone in the audience to remember the entire play they had just seen. Point is that even without elaborate formal systems of mnemomics, human memory was and is often considered superior to the written record. I am sure the Professor (and some of you others) is familiar with the scholarly technique of tracing the geneology of a manuscript by noting the errors on the texts. In the Middle Ages a peasant boy would often be dragged in to witness a treaty or contract and then be given a good beating to make sure he remembered it for the rest of his life. In short, the possibility of error in the semaphore system being proposed, while real, is not as great as many would think. John ----- //594 [Moderator's Note: Brett Slocum adds to the Semaphores discussion. ] >> It's the concept of 'cumulative error.' Despite all safeguards, >>'best guesses' at ambiguity will snowball-- any message sent by semaphore >>telegraph will eventually deteriorate beyond comprehension. Simple code >>groups can forestall this, but suffer the hazard of correspondingly massive >>information loss-- was that number 116 or 110? The entire sense of the >>message may depend on which it was... > >Mm. Historically, how bad a problem was this? My guess is not terribly so -- >that people who use this system take the bandwidth hit and transmit relatively >simple messages with a lot of effort rather than risking misinterpretation. >From my limited knowledge of semaphore code, there is a neat little code that means "Please, repeat. I missed something." If a receiver gets a message that doesn't make sense, he asks for a resend. This is very similar to some forms of digital communication, such as TCP/IP, which will ask to have the sender resend a packet of bits that don't make sense (that don't match their CRC error check). This scheme would reduce the errors in semaphore transmission. Brett ----- //595 [Moderator's Note: Joe Saul adds to the Semaphores discussion. ] >BTW, I figured out the big disadvantage of semaphores and heliographs. >Regardless of how hard you try to keep it secret, some people *will* >know the code, even if they have to figure it out by recording the >"code sequences" and then trying to compare them to likely message >texts. Not only that, you can also do "traffic analysis" even if you don't know the content. If you see a *lot* of messages being exchanged, you know something's up. Combine it with the fact that two Legions just headed Northwest... [Moderator's Note: That could be easily fixed Joe. Just have a normal set ] [ of regular type traffic that is also sent via the sema- ] [ phore method. That would eliminate the message traffic ] [ problem. ] Joe ----- //596 [Moderator's Note: Preston Simpson comments on the Origins of Sakbe and ] [ Ditlana topic. ] >2. The programme also showed a royal palace/temple complex that had half >of it torn away (literally cut in half) by a river. This exposed to the Interesting. Do you remember where this site was? >archaeologists how the top building had been built upon over another and >so and so on, right back to the original temple/tomb. (Amazingly the >actual founder of the city/culture and first of a dynasty was unearthed. >It turns out that he was from central Mexico and a foreigner and was >always portrayed with circular eye pieces - the source for the whole >'Charriots of the Gods' idea ...) > >Is this building over of tombs and the like, the souce of Ditlana? Possibly, but I don't think so. As I recall, the practice of building new cities atop old ones is not singular to the Central or South American civilizations; several such sites have been found throughout the Middle East and Asia Minor. The most famous example of such a city is probably that of Troy, a series of nine cities (at least) built one atop the next. In my opinion, there is no reason why building repeatedly on the same site should be a function of a particular culture. There are usually good reasons to stay in the same place, often involving advantageous location (ease of defense/transportation, proximity to water sources, ease of agriculture, and the like) or simple inertia (why pick up and move somewhere else when you can stay where you are and build again). >In light of these two questions, I wondered just how much this culture >influenced that of Tekumel? Possibly a great deal. As I recall, many of the survivors of the messes in 2012-3 were from Central and South America. While it is true that a considerable period of time will have elapsed between that age and that of Tekumel, I don't find it totally inconceivable that certain cultural ideas would have remained intact. ----- //597 [Moderator's Note: Preston Simpson adds to the Semaphores discussion. ] >[Moderator's Note: Leonard Erickson adds to the discussion about Semaphores.] > >> "-- As an exercise for the alert reader, can you tell me the single >>biggest pitfall with this system? Hint: What range limits might exist?" Simply, the horizon. You'd have to build either a small station every few miles or a large (tall) station every few more miles. There's a rough formula for determining the distance to the horizon, produced below (courtesy of Steve Jackson Games' _GURPS Vehicles_): Horizon = square root of [(D*1760*H) + (H*H)] where D is the planet's diameter in miles (7915 for Earth) and H is the sum of the observer's and the observed's height in yards above the local base ground level. Thus, between towers 20 yards tall, the value of H would be 40. Incidentally, using such towers on earth would give a maximum range of just under 13.5 miles between towers. >> The main value of the 'semaphore telegraph' is that it not only >>-can- work with Tekumeli knowledge, but it suits the culture also. Any >>civilization so deeply entrenched and well organized that it can build >>Sakbe Roads, and enforce the rules of those Roads across the entire domain, >>could build and employ such semaphores with ease. Don't forget the couriers, though. And don't run down the speed with which the courier system operates; Incan emperors often had fresh fish for meals brought from a coast some hundreds of miles away earlier that same day. >Would anybody be interested in a Tsolyani semaphore code? I could >probably draw one up once I dig up my copy of the alphabet. I don't know about anyone else, but I would be interested to see such a thing. >BTW, I figured out the big disadvantage of semaphores and heliographs. >Regardless of how hard you try to keep it secret, some people *will* >know the code, even if they have to figure it out by recording the >"code sequences" and then trying to compare them to likely message >texts. ...which is where the couriers come in. You can intercept their messages (mainly by ambushing the courier), but it's more difficult to get the message out of them than it would be to simply read it from a nearby tower. >ps. speaking of codes, I assume that the list is aware of the fact that >Tsolyani has a "code page" in the "official unofficial" Unicode >registry? I can dig up the URL and post the code assignments if anyone >is interested. I'm interested. Please send it to me, either via the list or to aliasan@mindspring.com. ----- //598 [Moderator's Note: Scott Maxwell adds to the Semaphores discussion. ] >BTW, I figured out the big disadvantage of semaphores and heliographs. >Regardless of how hard you try to keep it secret, some people *will* >know the code, even if they have to figure it out by recording the >"code sequences" and then trying to compare them to likely message >texts. This is actually not much of a problem. If the enemy are not in a position to see the code, they will never know the code. By placing a light source in a building/structure with thick walls and the light will be rather directional. There are signal towers in Europe built with double walls (one inside of the other) with aligning holes to permit light from a light source placed at the center of the tower to escape. Since light does not bend, this focuses the signal light to an arc of a few degrees at most. The towers themselves would have to be precisely placed, but I don't think that is a problem for the Tsolyani. ----- //599 [Moderator's Note: Captain Button adds to the Semaphores discussion. ] >[Moderator's Note: Leonard Erickson adds to the discussion about Semaphores.] [ text mangled in transmission ] >Would anybody be interested in a Tsolyani semaphore code? I could >probably draw one up once I dig up my copy of the alphabet. [ text classified by Ksarul priesthood ] >If you give me a letter frequency table for Tsolyani (ie a list of >letters from most common to least common in "normal" text) I could do >up a "morse code" also. Would semaphore codes be in Tsolyani? Might they not be a standard set of codes based on some otherwise long dead language from some ancient civilization? "The Tome of Sublimely Making One's Thoughts Fly Like the Rays of Dawn" Then only those noble well-born persons trained in this wisdom could understand it. Of course, this won't eliminate the problems you detail below. [ text fallen into pocket universe ] >BTW, I figured out the big disadvantage of semaphores and heliographs. >Regardless of how hard you try to keep it secret, some people *will* >know the code, even if they have to figure it out by recording the >"code sequences" and then trying to compare them to likely message >texts. > >So you have to accept the idea that at least some of your messages will >be known. You *can* encrypt them, but that makes sending and receiving >them harder (you can't rely on the operators being able to >automatically correct simple errors from context (eg "Sakbe rofd" to >"Sakbe road") To increase the fun, you can make poetic references to ancient literature to obscure your meaning (hopefully more from your opponents than your allies). [ text lost to overdone joke ] >ps. speaking of codes, I assume that the list is aware of the fact that >Tsolyani has a "code page" in the "official unofficial" Unicode >registry? I can dig up the URL and post the code assignments if anyone >is interested. Pardon this ignorant nakome foreigner, but could the Learned Scholar explain what Unicode is? - Kasi Meshqu (This is the best I can manage at translating Captain Button, and I'm sure it isn't very good. Suggestions welcome.) ----- //600 [Moderator's Note: Professor Barker comments on the Semaphores topic of ] [ recent messages. His responses are to messages 579, 582] [ and 583. Further Note: Our 600th message. Another ] [ milestone! ] [Response to 579] >Any anthropologists out there know whether this >game works in a culture with a strong oral tradition? I would think people >would be better at repeating even long phrases verbatim if they weren't >used to >depending on written communications. Tekumelani mostly have tremendous memories. They memorise all of the thousands of verses to the various recensions of "The Lament to the Wheel of Black," plus popular poetic works, plus other forms of literature -- etc. I recall when I was living in India that almost every literate person I met could quote verses from several poets (ancient and modern) without any difficulty, while I had endless trouble trying to memorise "To be or not to be..." in highschool. I met little kids who could recite the entire Qur'an (!) and quote you any verse you asked for. I also met kids who could recite-sing the entire Ramayana of Tulsi Das in mediaeval Hindi. It's just amazing. >(I'd assume Tsolyanu has a strong oral tradition, at least among the lower > lasses, as published literacy rates for them are not high.) People enjoy reciting poetry and singing the classical epics; hence there is a very high degree of "memory ability" in the Five Empires. >> It's the concept of 'cumulative error.' Despite all safeguards, >>'best guesses' at ambiguity will snowball-- any message sent by semaphore >>telegraph will eventually deteriorate beyond comprehension. Simple code >>groups can forestall this, but suffer the hazard of correspondingly massive >>information loss-- was that number 116 or 110? The entire sense of the >>message may depend on which it was... The Tsolyani do wave banners and light fires (or send up an explosive magical spell) to signal during battle. Semaphores, per se, have not developed because of the Tekumelani attachment to their scripts: vowels are written as diacritics over and under other letters; there are several forms of the same letter, depending on its position in a word; etc. The Tsolyani in particular cannot conceive of an alphabet where vowels are equal to consonants and each has an on-the-line "letter" of its own. They say that this would spoil the calligraphy and "anger the gods." >Mm. Historically, how bad a problem was this? My guess is not terribly so -- >that people who use this system take the bandwidth hit and transmit relatively >simple messages with a lot of effort rather than risking misinterpretation. Sending simple messages with a banner or bright-coloured cloth is possible: "Attack!" "Retreat!" "Return to camp!" The Five Empires do use trumpets and drums to signal, too. The drum is not used to send something like Morse code, however; different cadences indicate different messages. A sharp tattoo of rata-rata-rata means "Advance!" to the Tsolyani; a shrill continuous beat denotes "retreat," and other cadences have other meanings. This may not help, of course, since many of us are sophisticated by lifelong exposure to Western (American, British, European) tradition. We *expect* such inventions, and if they are not present, we at once ask, "Why not?" Our first impulse is to "invent" the missing item ("Now, General, take this bundle of flags and raise them up high one at a time -- the red equals 'attack,' the yellow means 'retreat," etc.) In point of fact, most ancient and medaeval battle music was just to inspire the troops and make loud and threatening noises to frighten the foe. A few signals were indeed used. But there were quite complex societies that had musical instruments but did not use them to send signals of any kind (e.g. the Aztecs, I believe). Did the Romans invent/use semaphores? I know that they lit bonfires atop hills and signal towers... These questions are the most aggravating of trying to live within the parameters of another culture. Regards, Phil ----- [Response to 582] >[Moderator's Note: Leonard Erickson adds to the discussion about Semaphores.] > >> "-- As an exercise for the alert reader, can you tell me the single >>biggest pitfall with this system? Hint: What range limits might exist?" >> >> In case no one figures this out-- which someone almost certainly >>will; membership on this mailing list could be construed as an intelligence >>test of no small utility-- there's a party game where the players sit in a >>circle, and a short phrase is given to the first player. He whispers it >>into his neighbor's ear, and he in turn whispers it, and so on around the >>circle. >> What emerges at the end of the process is wildly and strangely >>distorted. Comparison of this mangled product with the original is often >>hilarious-- the source of the game's amusement. >> >> It's the concept of 'cumulative error.' Despite all safeguards, >>'best guesses' at ambiguity will snowball-- any message sent by semaphore >>telegraph will eventually deteriorate beyond comprehension. Simple code >>groups can forestall this, but suffer the hazard of correspondingly massive >>information loss-- was that number 116 or 110? The entire sense of the >>message may depend on which it was... > >Actually, you don't get *nearly* as much distortion, as with the party >game because the message is sent one letter at a time. So while this >could result in a word being mispelled between two stations, the >structure of just about any language will result in the error being >obvious in most cases. >As an example, the equivalent "party game" would be for you to write >down your message, then read ot to the next person one letter at a >time. They write it down as you read it. Then they repeat the process >with the next person. > >And in practice, after receiving a message (or section of message if >it's a big message) you send it back to the other station. If you got >it right, they just send back an "ok" signal. If it isn't, they send >you the correction. > >> The main value of the 'semaphore telegraph' is that it not only >>-can- work with Tekumeli knowledge, but it suits the culture also. Any >>civilization so deeply entrenched and well organized that it can build >>Sakbe Roads, and enforce the rules of those Roads across the entire domain, >>could build and employ such semaphores with ease. > >Would anybody be interested in a Tsolyani semaphore code? I could >probably draw one up once I dig up my copy of the alphabet. Here we run into difficulties, alluded to in a previous post: the Tsolyani do not conceive of vowels as "letters"; therefore, like Arabic, they tend to write just consonants and sketch in a vowel or two to help the reading. How do you then send a vowel letter? For example, you can send "s-k", but this may be read as "saka," "suko," "Iska," etc. etc. This may still be helpful, of course, if you use only a small number of known lexemes and allow no others to be sent. It is not surprising, however, to find that many, many other cultures of our world never invented anything similar, even though it now seems so obvious to us! >> For that matter, given how hellishly predominant the Sun is, it is >>easy to imagine equally Brobdignagian heliograph mirrors-- perhaps swung up >>and down with ropes pulled by slaves. Tsolyani does not lend itself to >>Morse code, of course, but such signal-mirrors were used for centuries by >>cultures Samuel Morse never -heard- of. The flash of such titanic >>heliographs could be seen as far away as the horizon permitted. Again, such >>installations could not be thrown up overnight-- but this is Tsolyanu, land >>of massive masonry. They -could- be constructed. Tekumelani heliographs? Another device that somehow got lost in transmission out to Tekumel. Where is Archimedes when you need him? Actually, the heliograph has been thought of, but the conservative military doesn't approve -- "what," they ask, "Happens on a cloudy day -- or during the rains, when so many battles occur?" They do use fires and lights to signal simple messages, butcomplex material is beyond them. You may be interested in an old story from one of the guides at the Red Fort in Agra, India: he showed me a subterranean chamber where 7 doorways had been bricked up. "Each of these," he said, "leads to a passage that goes all the way underground from Agra to Delhi, to Benaras, to Lucknow, to Gwalior, etc. A man standing here can bear a gong, and the noise will reverberate down the tunnel for a long distance, where another relay gong-beater can hear it, pick it up, and send it on to its destination." Like all guides' stories, this may require a large ingestion of sodium chloride -- but it's fun... >If you give me a letter frequency table for Tsolyani (ie a list of >letters from most common to least common in "normal" text) I could do >up a "morse code" also. What are you going to do about the vowels and the various shapes of individual letters? The Tsolyani will certainly not accept that "initial /m/" is "the same letter" as "medial or final /m/," for example. In reality, these are allographs of the same grapheme, determined by position within the written word. But get any Tsolyani scholar to agree to this? >> You'd be surprised at how much information can be transmitted >>between dawn and sunset, by those trained in its communication. All true -- except that the Tsolyani, the Muugalavyani, the Yan Koryani, and possibly the Livyani make somewhat hit-and-miss use of relays of telepaths to send short, unambiguous (so far as possible) messages across distances. >And if you can use either magical light sources or bright (but small) >fires, you can even send messages at night. Not with mirrors, but by >masking and unmasking the fire. But the transmission rate will be a >*lot* slower (at least with fire where you have to make sure that >flickers aren't confused with deliberate maskings). Quite right. But telepathy works at night, too. The problem is in finding enough telepaths to communicate with everybody you need to talk to. Only a very, very few people have that kind of talent. >BTW, I figured out the big disadvantage of semaphores and heliographs. >Regardless of how hard you try to keep it secret, some people *will* >know the code, even if they have to figure it out by recording the >"code sequences" and then trying to compare them to likely message >texts. > >So you have to accept the idea that at least some of your messages will >be known. You *can* encrypt them, but that makes sending and receiving >them harder (you can't rely on the operators being able to >automatically correct simple errors from context (eg "Sakbe rofd" to >"Sakbe road") An enemy can also interfere with the message: cast a few bright light spells up in the air and add meaningless or *wrong* letters and words. If your heliograph is located on a hill or a tower, you need only position your magic-user out in front, between the source and the intended recipients. >Still, it'll be worth it in most cases. And I'm sure that Tekumeli >society can handle the situation of messages being "officially" secret >but actually know widely to those "in the know". Heck, that's a >*common* situation. As long as everyone *acts* as if they don't know >(regardless of what behind the scenes measures they take based on their >"forbidden" knowledge) then "face" is maintained and officials don't >have to "take notice" of the *real* situation. All true, Good work in figuring this out. >:-) > >ps. speaking of codes, I assume that the list is aware of the fact that >Tsolyani has a "code page" in the "official unofficial" Unicode >registry? I can dig up the URL and post the code assignments if anyone >is interested. > I didn't know that. Somebody did mention that Engsvanyali had a code-page. ??? Regards, Phil ----- [Response to 583] >[Moderator's Note: Thomas Worthington adds to the Semaphores discussion. ] > >> "-- As an exercise for the alert reader, can you tell me the single >>biggest pitfall with this system? Hint: What range limits might exist?" >> >> In case no one figures this out-- which someone almost certainly >>will; membership on this mailing list could be construed as an intelligence >>test of no small utility-- there's a party game where the players sit in a >>circle, and a short phrase is given to the first player. He whispers it >>into his neighbor's ear, and he in turn whispers it, and so on around the >>circle. >> What emerges at the end of the process is wildly and strangely >>distorted. Comparison of this mangled product with the original is often >>hilarious-- the source of the game's amusement. >> >> It's the concept of 'cumulative error.' Despite all safeguards, >>'best guesses' at ambiguity will snowball-- any message sent by semaphore >>telegraph will eventually deteriorate beyond comprehension. Simple code >>groups can forestall this, but suffer the hazard of correspondingly massive >>information loss-- was that number 116 or 110? The entire sense of the >>message may depend on which it was... > >Actually, this is not the real problem for words sent this way, >although for numbers it is. In transmissions data loss is based on >the unit of communication. In the case of the chinese whispers the >unit is the word and so it is words that get mangled. In most >semaphore systems the unit is an individual character and this allows >for much better error checking by the operator who knows that the >word "teh" is probably a miss-sending of "the" from the context. As noted in another posting, the Tsolyani (and others) tend not to see their alphabets in terms of individual letters. Vowels are diacritics above or below the consonant they follow. The various positional variants of the consonants, too, are seen as "letters" and would take considerable ingenuity to transmit. > A real physical problem on Tekumel is heat haze. The stations >would have to be closer together or bigger than in France to be sure >of being seen. either way this means more cost, material, and upkeep. >There is a further, more psychological/magical problem which I'll >mention below on the subject of Heliographs. Yes, indeed. Heat and dust are problems, as are the torrential downpours of the rainy season. > By the way, did you know that the fax machine was introduced into >France in the late 1800's? A British invention, no one would back the >inventor here so he went across the Channel and set up the first >system from Lille to Paris (I think). This sort of thing points up >the differences between our world & Tekumel's for sheer pace of >invention. There are probably many other examples of this sort of technological blindness. >> The main value of the 'semaphore telegraph' is that it not only >>-can- work with Tekumeli knowledge, but it suits the culture also. Any >>civilization so deeply entrenched and well organized that it can build >>Sakbe Roads, and enforce the rules of those Roads across the entire domain, >>could build and employ such semaphores with ease. >> >> As I recall sitting here, less is said in the S & G Sourcebook >>about long-distance communication than could be. I retain the impression of >>temple telepaths and jogging Imperial couriers-- yet it is also said that >>there are no such things, really, as 'local ordinances'; what is legal in >>Avanthar is legal in Do Chaka. That both implies and very much requires >>fast, reliable, most of all -commonplace- communication. Local >>jurisprudence will depend on knowing what legal decisions have been made, >>what precedents have been established, &c. >> >> Such a vast and ancient Empire cannot be held together with >>Kuni-birds... Quite true. The Imperial messenger service regularly carries digets of new laws, new facts, etc. across long distances. Like the Inca with their quipu (knotted coloured cords that stood for messages), the Tsolyani can transmit new materials across the Empire by relay runner quite efficiently. Nobody tends to think much farther than this -- it it ain't broken, don't fix it. >Tell that to the Incas who had an empire almost as long (N-S) as >Tsolyanu! Or the Russians, or the Mongols, or the Chinese, or >Alexander, or... Horses help but are not compulsory. > >> For that matter, given how hellishly predominant the Sun is, it is >>easy to imagine equally Brobdignagian heliograph mirrors-- perhaps swung up >>and down with ropes pulled by slaves. Tsolyani does not lend itself to >>Morse code, of course, but such signal-mirrors were used for centuries by >>cultures Samuel Morse never -heard- of. The flash of such titanic >>heliographs could be seen as far away as the horizon permitted. > >Indeed:- friend or foe for miles around could see your messages. Not >the sort of secretive communication the five empires like. > >>Again, such >>installations could not be thrown up overnight-- but this is Tsolyanu, land >>of massive masonry. They -could- be constructed. >> >> You'd be surprised at how much information can be transmitted >>between dawn and sunset, by those trained in its communication. Yes, quite right, assuming the culture did not have other priorities. The clans that produce messengers, the telepaths, etc. would doubtless object and lobby in Avanthar. Regards, Phil -----